Muun was driving me mad but I think I've cracked it

When you're mostly a one man band, choosing whether to spend your time developing and tinkering with complex systems or write about them is a perennial problem. If I haven't got the balance right, forgive me.

The Muun Wallet Problem: solved

I want to to do a full post on this because it took up a lot of time, but first thing is to say I think I've solved it.

The Lightning ecosystem has a bewildering array of mobile wallet applications and to outsiders they all seem to do the same thing. After minimal sign up you can send and receive Sats quickly by snapping QR codes or copy pasting long invoices like this:

Muun wallet invoice request


This is an invoice for 33,333 sats which my internal software converts as:

 "conversion": {
    "conv_from": "sats",
    "sats": 33333,
    "HIVE": 11.466075814285714,
    "HBD": 16.445032623694974,
    "USD": 16.05250614

This is the basic mechanism for people to convert Hive or HBD into Sats on the Lightning network, copy paste that lnbc333330n1p.... monstrosity into the site:, click on the HBD or Hive amount and sign with Keychain or HiveSigner and you're good to go as described in full here.

I feel the need for speed

My main goal for this gateway was always to give Hiveians a quick and easy way to get relatively modest amount of Hive into Lightning to use for Value 4 Value payments in the Podcasting 2.0 world. This isn't meant to be a major Bitcoin buying hub.

So most of the wallets I tested against are within Podcasting Apps like the ones I spoke about in this post. Almost all of these Podcasting first apps use a service called LNPay as their joint back end. This is really easy to work with but these apps are strictly custodial: you don't hold the keys to the wallets, the app developer does.

Breez is a little different: they're a Lightning App which implemented a podcast player, their solution is more like a non-custodial solution.

Further along the scale is Muun which was causing me a huge pain in the butt but I've come to understand why. The long and the short of it is that while I pay 1 to 10 sats to make a sat transfer of anything up to 100k sats to one of the podcast wallets, which works out below 0.1% and down to way lower than that.

Sending to a Muun wallet, which really is a trustless storage system for Lightning, costs up to 0.5% and at first I wasn't allowing for transaction fees that high. Now I am.

First I was cursing Muun, but now not so much

For a long while I've been cursing Muun (and Lightning) but I've come to understand both much better. Just so you understand, when something goes wrong with Lightning, the error message I receive (which I pass back to the requester in a message on Hive) is not always that clear. In this case I was told "no_route" which actually means, no_route within the fee limit you've set. I didn't understand that till I emailed Muun.


I'd really like to thank @shadowmyst for making a number of attempts which failed to help me figure out what was going wrong. My own payments to Muun often succeeded when his didn't. I had no idea why.


I'm woefully behind on telling you all the cool stuff that's ready to use. The next thing coming is another blog post and then a video of how to submit @threespeak podcasts to Apple, Google and a whole range of other podcast indexes.


Support Proposal 188 on PeakD
Support Proposal 188 with Hivesigner

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